They make villains who’s goals make total sense and are something to root for, so to balance that they make the villains kill innocents just to make sure the audience doesn’t accidentally side with them.
Poison Ivy’s explicitly stated goals are mass genocide, how is that something to root for. She’s not advocating for moving to solar or nuclear and reducing emissions.
That’s the point. You have a Villain who wants something good (stop the destruction of nature) and then pair it with something very evil (genocide). It’s a very common trope in media. It leads to the “Hero” of the story being able to defend the status quo again and again without ever challenging it.
That is a can of worms about on par with a leftist asking “In what order should I read theory”? There a 1001 correct answers, and there is no exact timeline about how you can delve into the character.
I have a decent bit of superhero knowledge and I dive into it every now and then, but I will not claim that I am some absolute authority on this subject and that I can give you a definitive list.
I will however recommend “Batman: Year One” as it is a good place to start with the character and that is considered one of the best comics of all time.
For a Batman/Joker story I would recommend the “Killing Joke” series, but I will say that is is fairly mature in its content, as it really attempts to delve into the Joker’s psychology as a tragic but evil character.
The Batman stories in the “Flashpoint” Series is fun as a side story as it follows a world where the Flash makes one change and alters all of history, and Batman ends up being Thomas Wayne (the dad) rather then Bruce Wayne (the son), and this is a much more aggressive and violent Batman, with a pretty shady moral code as Thomas goes full capitalist and is pretty evil.
Not begrudging your interests, but I think this post kind of summarizes why I have never been able to read any western comics.
I like really concrete beginning/end points for fictional media. I like to be able to say “This is book 1, I can start here. This is book 4, it’s the last one”. I also hate jumping into any series in the middle, even if it is absolutely designed for it. Anytime I have thought about trying to read any western comics (or warhammer on the same note) it just seems like a massive ambigious undertaking.
I get that feeling when it comes to comics since their are a lot of reboots and stories in alternative universes and resets and stuff like this.
I tried to get a better grip on Batman during the last days. The comics recommended where great but diving deeper has become very difficult since I just can’t figure out what is canon and what isn’t.
Getting into Warhammer is a lot easier in my opinion (don’t get me wrong, it can still be daunting without proper guidance).
Most Warhammer book series are contained in their own.
You don’t need to know the entire universe to understand the Eisenhorn books or Gaunt’s Ghosts or Ciaphis Cain.
Knowing more about the universe might give you a broader understanding but it’s not required to fully enjoy them at all.
The biggest hurdle is deciding on where to start. There are a lot of good starting points. Picking your first novel is pretty much depending on what you like.
“Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?”
I totally agree with the sentiment, but when does one know that one knows enough though? How deep does one have to dig? How much does one have to research to be able to contribute?
Mao mentions the essentials of a topic. He isn’t saying “you must be an expert on something before you can talk about it” rather “You must understand it before you talk about it.”
Someone who knows nothing about a topic cannot contribute to a discussion on it, but someone who knows at least a little still can.
Look at the libs that wander in here sometimes, they are the perfect example of “talking nonsense” that Mao describes. They contribute nothing, because the things they say are said out of complete ignorance of the topic.
Basically, you could sum it up as “Check yourself, before you wreck yourself.” Examine your own understanding of a topic to work out if you do actually know something about it, or if you are just spitting hot air. If you think you do, but others inform you that you don’t, that’s not a bad thing, it’s an opportunity for learning.
Harry Potter is the champion of doing this as Harry manages to support a status quo that literally does nothing but work against him.
It’s like JK insists a corrupt system is the only possible system and is perfect because some bad apple will eventually trip over some rule or clause that saves the day at the 11th hour so… “It’s all good!”
I may have used the wrong wording. I think some villains have good motives but bad execution. I also used this post as a jumping off point of the whole trope rather than commentary on Poison Ivy specifically.
I know next to nothing about this version of Batman, Ivy and Freeze so I can’t speak to them, hell I can’t speak about a lot of Batman villains, this post just reminded me of this weird trend.
The villain that came to mind for me was the air bender guy from Legend of Korra, from what little I can recall from that show. Something about anarchy, I think. The antagonists from The Falcon and the Winter Soldier have been said to fit this trope as well but I can’t say for sure as I’ve never watched that show.
That’s the easiest way to make complex villains, give them a relatable goal with terrible means. Activates the good old “do the ends justify the means” question and tempts the audience. The best superhero movies give the hero a strong moral backbone to “save” the audience and find the truth between the two. Look at how Black Panther learns from Killmonger’s criticism but does it without war and hatred
Edit: Also The Batman is pretty solid with this aspect. He sees how his quest for revenge encourages violent vigilantism and inspires the incel-like Riddler. Because of this he decides to turn toward hope and helping others instead
I don’t disagree with the sentiment. The problem is that it gives the impression that people irl are willing to go to these extreme and illogical means to achieve their otherwise good ends. That’s not the case. Indeed it’s often the opposite. The people trying to do good things are almost always unwilling to do anything ‘bad’ to achieve their aims. They usually refuse even to defend themselves against reaction.
This kind of writing is poor because it’s easy and removes any subtlety from the equation. No reasonable person on earth is going to think a villain is right to commit genocide to fix the world’s major problems. Nevermind lesser problems. Irl it’s the billionaires who are willing to cause untold suffering in the search for profit. There are ways to make that dramatic and exciting but Hollywood is not set to to write it.
This kind of writing is propaganda. It wraps human action in individualism and builds a model of ‘villain’ that can be invoked every time imperialists want to start another war. Later, the subjects of this propaganda rarely if ever seriously question the motives of the people destroyed by imperialist war in part because they’ve been conditioned to think in a certain way about the ‘enemy’.
I absolutely agree that putting that dilemma into a story can be great for drama. I just reject the Hollywood rendition of it because it’s always the same. When I watch most action movies, I time how long it takes to reveal that the volunteer at the soup kitchen suddenly tells the audience that the best way to feed the homeless is to the lions.
I’m not talking about Poison Ivy and Batman, yet. I can’t talk to Poison Ivy or to Batman in the specific. In the abstract, philanthropy and an individual approach to solving crime can never be successful. These are palatable methods because the writers want people to limit what they think is possible. If they were serious about creating a model for helping people they’d show someone organising the workers e.g. in Gotham or elsewhere rather than thinking anyone can solve everything alone. (That said, I’m not against Batman in the way that I’m against Marvel.)
Show me the dilemma faced by all the people who, to pay their bills, are sat in an office in New York committing slow violence against child labourers being poisoned by chemicals in a garment factory in India. Then show me the workers organising themselves to improve working conditions.
In the sequel, they can overthrow the directors of the company. In the third movie, they can start a revolution. If this were written by Hollywood, those workers would be the villains, pointlessly terrorising random targets. But irl the only violence they’d be involved in is as victim of the state and the employer.
Heath Ledger’s Joker is basically the textbook example. He is… pretty much right, but the body count means you can’t agree with him.
Joaquin Phoenix Joker however did nothing wrong… until he killed his therapist, but that happens after he’s too far gone… He’s the real victim there and the movie is aware of that. Which is why the movie is so good.
They make villains who’s goals make total sense and are something to root for, so to balance that they make the villains kill innocents just to make sure the audience doesn’t accidentally side with them.
Poison Ivy’s explicitly stated goals are mass genocide, how is that something to root for. She’s not advocating for moving to solar or nuclear and reducing emissions.
That’s the point. You have a Villain who wants something good (stop the destruction of nature) and then pair it with something very evil (genocide). It’s a very common trope in media. It leads to the “Hero” of the story being able to defend the status quo again and again without ever challenging it.
I understand, but the villain doesn’t lead with “Let’s stop the destruction of nature”, they lead with “Everyone should die”.
I don’t think Poison Ivy ever actually makes a compelling argument for conservationism and anti-capitalism. They just really REALLY hate people.
That might be the case. You seem to know more about Batman than I do so I will do as Mao suggests and shut up before I haven’t researched the topic.
Any Batman comics you could recommend?
That is a can of worms about on par with a leftist asking “In what order should I read theory”? There a 1001 correct answers, and there is no exact timeline about how you can delve into the character.
I have a decent bit of superhero knowledge and I dive into it every now and then, but I will not claim that I am some absolute authority on this subject and that I can give you a definitive list.
I will however recommend “Batman: Year One” as it is a good place to start with the character and that is considered one of the best comics of all time.
For a Batman/Joker story I would recommend the “Killing Joke” series, but I will say that is is fairly mature in its content, as it really attempts to delve into the Joker’s psychology as a tragic but evil character.
The Batman stories in the “Flashpoint” Series is fun as a side story as it follows a world where the Flash makes one change and alters all of history, and Batman ends up being Thomas Wayne (the dad) rather then Bruce Wayne (the son), and this is a much more aggressive and violent Batman, with a pretty shady moral code as Thomas goes full capitalist and is pretty evil.
The Long Halloween is also pretty good!
Thank you. Follow up question, where can I read them? DC Infinite isn’t available in my country (I also wouldn’t mind putting on a pirat hat)
Not begrudging your interests, but I think this post kind of summarizes why I have never been able to read any western comics.
I like really concrete beginning/end points for fictional media. I like to be able to say “This is book 1, I can start here. This is book 4, it’s the last one”. I also hate jumping into any series in the middle, even if it is absolutely designed for it. Anytime I have thought about trying to read any western comics (or warhammer on the same note) it just seems like a massive ambigious undertaking.
Warhammer at this point have like 1000 or more books.
I get that feeling when it comes to comics since their are a lot of reboots and stories in alternative universes and resets and stuff like this. I tried to get a better grip on Batman during the last days. The comics recommended where great but diving deeper has become very difficult since I just can’t figure out what is canon and what isn’t.
Getting into Warhammer is a lot easier in my opinion (don’t get me wrong, it can still be daunting without proper guidance). Most Warhammer book series are contained in their own. You don’t need to know the entire universe to understand the Eisenhorn books or Gaunt’s Ghosts or Ciaphis Cain. Knowing more about the universe might give you a broader understanding but it’s not required to fully enjoy them at all. The biggest hurdle is deciding on where to start. There are a lot of good starting points. Picking your first novel is pretty much depending on what you like.
Can you please share that quote from Mao?
“No investigation, no right to speak”.
“Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?”
-Mao in Oppose Book Worship
I totally agree with the sentiment, but when does one know that one knows enough though? How deep does one have to dig? How much does one have to research to be able to contribute?
Mao mentions the essentials of a topic. He isn’t saying “you must be an expert on something before you can talk about it” rather “You must understand it before you talk about it.”
Someone who knows nothing about a topic cannot contribute to a discussion on it, but someone who knows at least a little still can. Look at the libs that wander in here sometimes, they are the perfect example of “talking nonsense” that Mao describes. They contribute nothing, because the things they say are said out of complete ignorance of the topic.
Basically, you could sum it up as “Check yourself, before you wreck yourself.” Examine your own understanding of a topic to work out if you do actually know something about it, or if you are just spitting hot air. If you think you do, but others inform you that you don’t, that’s not a bad thing, it’s an opportunity for learning.
Poison Ivy is malthusian.
Harry Potter is the champion of doing this as Harry manages to support a status quo that literally does nothing but work against him.
It’s like JK insists a corrupt system is the only possible system and is perfect because some bad apple will eventually trip over some rule or clause that saves the day at the 11th hour so… “It’s all good!”
I may have used the wrong wording. I think some villains have good motives but bad execution. I also used this post as a jumping off point of the whole trope rather than commentary on Poison Ivy specifically.
I know next to nothing about this version of Batman, Ivy and Freeze so I can’t speak to them, hell I can’t speak about a lot of Batman villains, this post just reminded me of this weird trend.
The villain that came to mind for me was the air bender guy from Legend of Korra, from what little I can recall from that show. Something about anarchy, I think. The antagonists from The Falcon and the Winter Soldier have been said to fit this trope as well but I can’t say for sure as I’ve never watched that show.
Yeah, Poison Ivy is a misanthrope.
That’s the easiest way to make complex villains, give them a relatable goal with terrible means. Activates the good old “do the ends justify the means” question and tempts the audience. The best superhero movies give the hero a strong moral backbone to “save” the audience and find the truth between the two. Look at how Black Panther learns from Killmonger’s criticism but does it without war and hatred
Edit: Also The Batman is pretty solid with this aspect. He sees how his quest for revenge encourages violent vigilantism and inspires the incel-like Riddler. Because of this he decides to turn toward hope and helping others instead
I don’t disagree with the sentiment. The problem is that it gives the impression that people irl are willing to go to these extreme and illogical means to achieve their otherwise good ends. That’s not the case. Indeed it’s often the opposite. The people trying to do good things are almost always unwilling to do anything ‘bad’ to achieve their aims. They usually refuse even to defend themselves against reaction.
This kind of writing is poor because it’s easy and removes any subtlety from the equation. No reasonable person on earth is going to think a villain is right to commit genocide to fix the world’s major problems. Nevermind lesser problems. Irl it’s the billionaires who are willing to cause untold suffering in the search for profit. There are ways to make that dramatic and exciting but Hollywood is not set to to write it.
This kind of writing is propaganda. It wraps human action in individualism and builds a model of ‘villain’ that can be invoked every time imperialists want to start another war. Later, the subjects of this propaganda rarely if ever seriously question the motives of the people destroyed by imperialist war in part because they’ve been conditioned to think in a certain way about the ‘enemy’.
I absolutely agree that putting that dilemma into a story can be great for drama. I just reject the Hollywood rendition of it because it’s always the same. When I watch most action movies, I time how long it takes to reveal that the volunteer at the soup kitchen suddenly tells the audience that the best way to feed the homeless is to the lions.
I’m not talking about Poison Ivy and Batman, yet. I can’t talk to Poison Ivy or to Batman in the specific. In the abstract, philanthropy and an individual approach to solving crime can never be successful. These are palatable methods because the writers want people to limit what they think is possible. If they were serious about creating a model for helping people they’d show someone organising the workers e.g. in Gotham or elsewhere rather than thinking anyone can solve everything alone. (That said, I’m not against Batman in the way that I’m against Marvel.)
Show me the dilemma faced by all the people who, to pay their bills, are sat in an office in New York committing slow violence against child labourers being poisoned by chemicals in a garment factory in India. Then show me the workers organising themselves to improve working conditions.
In the sequel, they can overthrow the directors of the company. In the third movie, they can start a revolution. If this were written by Hollywood, those workers would be the villains, pointlessly terrorising random targets. But irl the only violence they’d be involved in is as victim of the state and the employer.
Heath Ledger’s Joker is basically the textbook example. He is… pretty much right, but the body count means you can’t agree with him.
Joaquin Phoenix Joker however did nothing wrong… until he killed his therapist, but that happens after he’s too far gone… He’s the real victim there and the movie is aware of that. Which is why the movie is so good.