Image description:
Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:
Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption “Oh wow, windows!.. I don’t think I can afford this place.”
I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse…
- Want a TV? Suck on our Android TV with Google spyware embedded
- Want a phone? Get our Android with Google spyware, or go for an Apple with Apple spyware
- Want a computer? We’ll shove Windows spyware down your throat
Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can’t even buy them anymore…
Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that’s a real problem…Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don’t try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.
Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.
I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.
I needed 6 months for the whole setup.
You can double nat if you want.
Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.
OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.
You can’t just buy a modem? And modems are really that pricey where you are?. I can get a modem router combo for $150. Maybe $200 if I want to splurge a little bit that meets most of my needs. And then if you’re really worried about like linksys OS or something like that, you can just flash DDWRT onto it? I’m not saying the United States service providers are better, but does Germany service providers really make it that complicated to just have your own modem? Because it’s a super simple process in America. 6 months just seems insane to set up a router and modem
Pretty sure AT&T in the US requires the use of their “U-verse” modems with a lot of their internet options. I think comcast locked unlimited data behind using their modem unless you wanted to pay more for the unlimited data than they charge for the modem. I never tried turning on bridge mode on them though, so no clue if that’s enabled or not.
No isp in the us can require you to use and rent their modem. I have Comcast unlimited is just another tier like all their other bs. Its not locked to a modem.
But AT&T does or at least did. You can/could put it in bridge mode though and use a secondary one. https://support.eero.com/hc/en-us/articles/207988076-Setting-up-eero-with-AT-T-U-verse https://forums.att.com/conversations/att-internet-equipment/can-i-use-a-different-modem-and-router-to-connect-with-uverse-internet/5df0012dbad5f2f6063a903b https://robotpoweredhome.com/att-modems/
For Comcast, I never said you can’t just get unlimited. Just that it cost more than getting the modem with unlimited: https://www.xfinity.com/learn/internet-service/data $25/month for modem+unlimited while its $30/month for unlimited. Cheaper to take the modem even if you don’t use it.
The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell
It’s not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about “smart” TVs, it’s how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I’ve mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I’ve used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a “smart” tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive “smart” menu, it just sucks.
And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won’t let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should
It’s not only you. A couple years ago I sold and set up brand new display tvs. They were atrocious with how much they lagged out of the box. I stay away from roku for that reason, their TCL roku tvs are the worst for lag, or they were back then at least.
Apple spyware? Cute that you make shit up to justify your victimhood. The vendors that install actual spyware appreciate your ignorance.
Right, Apple is a champion of open source and transparency.
That wasn’t the accusation.
There are many who use Apple laptops as Linux laptops.
I don’t understand your initial point. He’s talking about what you get when you buy a new PC. If you buy an Apple PC, you’ll get Apple spyware. It doesn’t imply anything about some Apple buyers putting Linux on their PCs
Apple spyware means exactly what to you? You can’t just make shit up because you hate Apple. Then on top of that expect someone who is more knowledgeable to accept your ignorance.
When people ask for advice and reject the most common paths that professional take because they cannot get over their own ignorance, they aren’t actually asking for advice. They are playing victim and looking for their fellow ignorants to ditto them.
I 100% guarantee you that any Apple product is collecting your data and squeezing as much profit as possible out of it. Why? well, Why not!
Source: trust me bro
Except it’s not. It’s great that you understand most companies are positioned this way but Apple is not. I don’t expect anyone in a technology forum that cannot understand the nuances.
Paranoia is good but if you choose Google because you falsely believe you have no choice because everyone else is doing it too, then cool.
I am no pied piper and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I abhor groupthink and while I will never refrain from pointing out the obvious cases of it, I couldn’t care less if anyone listened. People far smarter than I have written on the folly of arguing in these instances.
Same with Windows computers. You make no sense
There are a lot of smart people making sure Apple hardware supports Linux. There is a limited number of variations, the hardware itself has high built quality and Apple pushes support into the Linux community so the hardware can more easily run Linux.
The same cannot be said about any random windows laptop.
As others have noted, if you want a Linux first laptop, there are options.
However this idea that Apple spies on its users has no merit. It’s a claim I have only witnessed being made by the witless.
I’ve been in the internet long enough to know not to expect fools to accept they are fools.
Unlike the morons of the internet, I am always ready to be proven wrong. However, it doesn’t look like that’s about to happen here.
Have you considered that your approach may contribute to your difficulties dealing with such people? The tone of your messages is extremely aggressive.
No, I’m good. I’m not here to make friends. I’m not even expecting to challenge anyone’s techno-religion. At best I would say this is devil advocacy but it’s not quite that since it’s not about what I believe or do not believe. But it’s about what others believe and the display of fervent belief in others intrigue me, especially where it exists in the face of clear unambiguous reality.
For example, Trump supporters fascinate me in this same way. People say being nice is a better approach there as well, but i am not trying to deal with them or change their minds either. In that situation I refer to it as stick poking.
Again, it’s the belief that intrigues me. The sociology behind it is understudied.
According to the current class action lawsuit, the privacy settings for the app store do nothing. So consent doesn’t matter. Building a digital fingerprint after explicitly saying they don’t might be called spying.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/01/09/apple-privacy-tracking-lawsuit/
Educate yourself fruity,
Apple does spy on youYou made the accusation, you back it up. I’m not doing the leg work for you.
Here are a few examples, but if you do some research like I told you to, you’ll stumble upon many more:
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-privacy-dsid-analytics-personal-data-test-1849807619 - Apple started scanning your local files even if you do not use iCloud / Apple services:
https://sneak.berlin/20230115/macos-scans-your-local-files-now/ - Apple (allegedly) left in a backdoor to iPhones (likely on purpose and in cooperation with government officials):
https://www.kaspersky.com/about/press-releases/2023_kaspersky-discloses-iphone-hardware-feature-vital-in-operation-triangulation-case
Click bait
Click bait
Hardware flaw
None of this is spyware. Not a single piece.
If I cared I could have guessed these were some of the examples you added to your “Apple is bad head cannon” but these still aren’t what is being alleged by the original poster, spyware.
At best you can claim Apple is using terms and conditions to add wiggle room but again, not spyware.
I asked if you know what spyware is but I get that it doesn’t matter. Your head cannon is unbeatable and it’s easier to dismiss me as a no nothing asshole. The crowd has spoke, this technology forum is more interested in groupthink than technology.
What are your sources for debunking mine?
Besides you just not liking to face the truth?Blanket surveillance is not clickbait,
it’s spyware, and a problem.But sure continue to stick your head in the sand,
that will surely help humanity beat this problem.deleted by creator
- Apple ignored/ignores disabling of “Share iPhone Analytics”:
Apple’s entire schtick is the walled off garden where they can control what you’re allowed to do and yes they spy on it
You keep making that claim about spying without attempting to back it up.
You’re confusing me with others, just the once, but hey, you’re free to lick apple’s boots. Fairly common knowledge that just about everything corporation that can include spyware does. You think Apple doesn’t track every purchase you make on their platform and utilize that data in reference to your name, phone number, email, geo-location, bundle it altogether and sell to advertisers?
Yes. Free to think it because it’s true. Apple doesn’t sell their users out, they get their money up front on the hardware…the thing people like you call the Apple Tax.
Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.
Love their concept but I just can’t afford it. My problem isn’t finding a machine that works well with Linux. It’s finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.
I think most Lenovo and dell computers provide you with the option to go without an OS or something like Ubuntu.
Only select top-end models in my country unfortunately.
Have you considered second hand? I’m not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.
I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.
Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.
Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.
Is the 500usd for the full computer? I got confused before that some of the cheapest configurations didn’t have everything needed to make the computer, like RAM and storage.
No it is not
Unfortunately Framework doesn’t retail in my country and that’s the requirement. But that does sound very enticing, I’ll keep an eye on their B-stock. Thanks!
As for the flashed chromebooks that sounds like a pretty cool weekend project but I need something with a little more power.
Especially now that they’re selling refurbished models at a heavy discount, you can get into the Framework ecosystem pretty easily and upgrade the mainboard later.
Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?
Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.
Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.
OP doesn’t want to pay the extra $120 for an OS he’s never gonna use. Yes everyone sells a Linux laptop but there’s a few companies that won’t charge you for Windows on top of that.
Thank you, it seems the point of this meme is lost on some Lemmings :D
Yes, but all the budget laptops from them I can find don’t have that option. Only a few select higher-end gaming models come with Linux.
Not to be that “aktchually” guy, but Microsoft actually ends up paying OEM’s to ship with Windows, in order to drive costs down to be more affordable than competitors. You can still reimage with Linux, which I know, is an extra step from it shipping with Linux, but in a wild turn of events, we can thank Microsoft for driving down the prices of our to-be-Linux machines ;)
I think that was only true back in the 90s, when there were still other OSes to compete against Windows, like OS/2, Solaris and BeOS late in the decade. Once Microsoft effectively dominated the consumer PC market (2000s?), they turned around to threaten to never do business with OEMs that dared to bundle competitors’ OS. They also did something similar in Japan, which destroyed NEC (who created the PC-88 and PC-98, the most popular 80s and early 90s computers there) dominance.
This route does still count as a Windows sale and you still pay for the license.
So if the manufacturer offers a “no os” option, rather than any Linux option, it’s still a better choice than “Windows” if you know you will reimage to something else anyway.Have never seen this as a consumer though. I remember buying a laptop 10 years ago without OS since it was cheaper than same model with preinstalled Windows. Checked a random laptop and same still applies, version with Windows costs 30 eur more in my local webshop for what seems to be the same model with same specifications (No English available, use translate if needed):
You can add framework laptops to that list too.
To have windows you pay extra, no os is free
Buy used ThinkPad.
Have two already, need something new, can’t be used. Please read the other comments before commenting, this is like the 7th one saying the same thing.
eBay!
Penguin t4 starts at $799.00.
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-t4-gnulinux-laptop
Friend: “What’s your system specs?”
Me: “12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU”
F: “Nice. What games do you play?”
M: “Games…? Is that what else people do with these things?”
These days it’s not uncommon to have a powerful GPU just for AI acceleration.
Or for photo editing. Or video editing. Or CAD work. Or a lot more stuff.
Microsoft is not dominating the PC market like you think they are. Nowadays, if you’re in school, and the school tells you to use a computer, it’s probably going to be a Chromebook. Google has made it much cheaper for enterprises and schools to afford chromebooks, by giving them deals and building protocols that would specifically be useful in a school or work environment, and in some cases, forcing students/parents to buy Chromebooks specifically. And more rarely, requiring people to use them at work.
Also, I feel like this whole post completely disregards the existence of Chromebooks in general. They’re Linux computers. And they’re what most of the next generation are learning to use at school, and therefore, what most of them will probably buy when they buy a laptop. You know, assuming they didn’t think it was awful.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a computer with Windows pre-installed on it. People just enjoy hating on Windows. You basically can’t use Linux without having enough know-how to install it yourself anyway. Just delete Windows. Or is the Linux gang really just looking for every little thing to complain about? I think that’s what it is. You guys should spend more time pointing out why Linux should be the status quo, instead of complaining about the current status quo. It gets you nowhere with people who use Windows, and the Apple people laugh at you. So you’re essentially just circle jerking your favorite penguin. Why? Windows didn’t steal your girl. It’s an alternative. Buy a laptop that doesn’t have an operating system on it, if you’re so upset about it. They exist. It took me less than a minute to Google it. Want Linux on it? Buy a Chromebook. The world already conforms to you, and yet you still complain.
Way to completely miss the point there…
There’s literally a Chromebook section at Best Buy. The point couldn’t be more wrong. Quit complaining about non-existent problems just so you can make anti-Windows propaganda. It’s shameful.
Do you think everyone lives in the US?
Then install Linux FOR FREE on a Windows PC and stop whining. I used Best Buy as an example. I highly doubt Chromebooks aren’t available in your area. This is a list of every place that Chromebooks are sold, according to Google: "North America, United States, Canada, Mexico, Europe, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Austria, Rest of Europe, Asia Pacific, China, S Korea, Japan, India, Australia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Taiwan, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Rest of APAC.
You just wanted to complain and you know it. Educate yourself and stop spreading propaganda for Linux. Linux doesn’t need your help.
Microsoft would make more from continued Windows usage (between selling data and products like Office) then that license key sold in volume to the OEM.
Get a used ThinkPad, OP
Have two already.
buy from the official website, you can select “no operating system” there. (did that last time from Lenovo’s site)
please share how I can configure a T14 AMD Gen 4 with “no operating system”
cuz I have never seen “no operating system” on Lenovo’s site and I’ve bought three thinkpads from them in the past four years!
is it a region locked thing, i can select it from the german site: “Schau mal hier Junge” https://www.lenovo.com/de/de/configurator/cto/index.html?bundleId=21K3CTO1WWDE2
The US store only has Windows 11 Home and Windows 11 Pro.
In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.
I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.
Lenovo has official support for Ubuntu on all laptops which translates very well to other distros. IMO the Thinkbook gen 6 having fully upgradable ram and decent specs is a really good deal for a Linux laptop *when on sale
Yet they don’t sell laptops without windows in my country.
I don’t get it. I wouldn’t need to have Linux preinstalled. I could just get… Literally any laptop and then only ever boot up Windows to download my preferred distro, if I don’t already have a USB ready.
The point is that you have to pay for that windows that you’re going to erase anyways. It’s not free.
In my experience, unless it’s the professional version of windows, laptops with windows tend to be a little cheaper than blank laptops. Pretty sure Microsoft actually pays manufactures to use Windows.
I believe they pay OEMs as long as they exclusively use Windows, or at least they get a sizable discount
