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I’ve never been able to get liberals to admit capitalism killed anyone. They always deflect saying authoritarianism or governments killed people, not capitalism, since they say capitalism is an ideal of treating people fairly or blah blah
I’ll readily admit communists killed people, and they deserved it. There should be more dead Nazis and landlords. Kill them all.
Hi, I’m an advocate for democracy, human rights, and civil liberty with an aversion to harm, which many would say is the definition of a Liberal. Capitalism has killed countless people and continues to do so today in places like the USA, China, and Russia as well as around the world. Greed and wealth disparity is a disease ever-present.
Historically, plutocracy was the cause and justification for many horrible atrocities including the Atlantic Slave Trade and the Opium Wars.
I’ve personally never met a Liberal who defended any of those things. That would probably be more the Laissez-Faire and Anti-Taxation crowds sometimes referred to as libertarians in the USA, I’m sure there are other groups as well.
You know what I would never do, though? Compare communism/socialism to whatever the fuck the Chinese Autocracy is. That’s just delusional.
I find it funny that when people from other instances disagree with something here, they introduce themselves in a similar fashion as you:
I’m an advocate for democracy, human rights, and civil liberty with an aversion to harm
Every socialist is an advocate for these things as well. How can someone advocate for workplace democracy without being an advocate for democracy in general? Isn’t working to alleviate poverty (like China, where they have already lifted 700+ million people out of it) a victory for human rights? Isn’t a system where everyone is accountable and can’t use their wealth to circumvent the law an improvement for civil liberties? And lastly, every human who isn’t a psychopath has an aversion to harm…
Meanwhile, liberalism also claims to advocate for these things, but with no actions to back them. How can someone claim that choosing which rich people party to vote for every 4 years is democratic? Yet most people don’t challenge this claim. How can someone claim to be an advocate for human rights but take no action against homelessness and poverty? Historically, why is it that most (if not all) human rights declarations happened in slave-owning and/or imperialist countries?
Oh, I’m sorry, I thought this was a discussion about acknowledging the death and harm caused by capitalism. Is that not what this discussion was about? Why are you suddenly changing the subject? Let’s roll with it, then.
Average quality of life in every imaginable facet has improved over the last century in almost every country, China just had a lower starting point before catching up to the modern world, most of which was done between the 70s and 90s. One growing problem in China is Homelessness as rural and migrant workers numbering in the hundreds of millions are ineligible for housing in the cities they work in because their Hukou designation is elsewhere. China has 814 Billionaires if you include Hong Kong and Macau. Just like the USA and Europe they have rising youth unemployment and constant banking crisis.
Historically, why is it that most (if not all) human rights declarations happened in slave-owning and/or imperialist countries?
This statement shows a severe lack of historical awareness about eastern nations including China. By the pound, there has been more bloodshed over class disputes there than any other corner of the earth.
This statement shows a severe lack of historical awareness about eastern nations including China
Not only was the person you responded to correct about this, this statement is actually applicable to you right now. 🤷🏿♂️
By the pound, there has been more bloodshed over class disputes there than any other corner of the earth.
That’s cause the bourgeoisie can and will do everything to stay in power, and that’s when fascism takes hold.
Capitalism has killed countless people and continues to do so today in places like the USA, China, and Russia as well as around the world. Greed and wealth disparity is a disease ever-present.
Okay. Good so far.
Historically, plutocracy was the cause and justification for many horrible atrocities including the Atlantic Slave Trade and the Opium Wars.
Incorrect. It was settler colonialism and imperialism that directly drove both of these atrocities and then some.
I’ve personally never met a Liberal who defended any of those things
It doesn’t matter. Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, which also whitewashes crimes committed by the US. And there are plenty of liberals who would happily put people like me back in chains for not voting for their “harm reduction” candidate.
You know what I would never do, though? Compare communism/socialism to whatever the fuck the Chinese Autocracy is. That’s just delusional.
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whatever the fuck
If you don’t know what is actually going on in China, it’s probably better not to speak as an authority on it. Good intentions don’t inherently make you any more effective at being well-informed. You can be more well-informed still, if you translate the intent to a certain amount of humility about what you know and find the right people to listen to. Right now, how you come across to me is a western chauvinist who is determined to oversimplify the world and pretend other cultures and peoples are identical to yours, while speaking from a position of implied superiority of knowledge and understanding of the world.
You might think that’s a lot to extrapolate from your post, but the tone of your post is a lot more generic of an ideological position than you might realize. It’s good that you recognize the harm capitalism causes. But that can’t be the end of it or you miss the larger picture of the world’s development and history. You have to recognize what colonialism and imperialism are, as a bare minimum, and preferably attain some understanding of how the targets of these things have developed in their efforts toward self-determination. Notably, the western empire is still an ongoing thing to contend with. If you exclude that from your understanding of nations, you will be viewing the world through a simplified lens of “good/bad nation” and missing a large portion of not only development and the whys behind it, but also information and bias, and being able to recognize, for example, that much of the “information” you will find from the western empire about China is coming from a place of empire wanting to undermine it.
Recognition of biases is pivotal to going further than condemnation of vague descriptions of reality like “greed.” Greed is real, but it is insufficient to explain the mechanisms of development of a nation, a people, much less the entire world. Choosing to consciously side with colonized people’s over colonizers is a form of bias, but this does not make it bad. There is no escaping bias. There is no ideology where you can be above the fray. The question is, do you come to recognize the biases and choose sides, or do you pretend to be above it and condemn vague descriptions of behavior that are commonly associated with immoral action. The second one might make you feel good, but it offers no materially proven solutions to the problems of the day. The first one is what history is actually operating on and will continue to operate on, whether you recognize the mechanisms or not.
CoMmUnIsM KiILed 100 MiLliOn
So, about 10 years of capitalism, but who is counting.
Correct. Also, the 100m number is literally fake. IIRC, it can be traced back to that shitty piece of CIA propaganda “the black book of communism”.
That number factors in deaths that have nothing to do with Socialism, such as:
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Nazis killed in WW2;
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People that died of famines that weren’t even caused by Socialism (multiplied by a certain number because they could’ve had children) and old age (comrade grim reaper, Joseph Stalin’s 2nd in command!!!);
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Soviet Union: Everyone that died due to the famine after the Russian Civil War + those who died during the Siege of Leningrad and during WW2.
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Execution of Nazi collaborators and chaos instigators;
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Blatantly making up a few million deaths just to get to the 100 million mark (iirc it was between 5m-15m);
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China: The few famines that happened throughout the history of the PRC (China used to have famines once every few years for millennia until the Communists took over);
I’m sure other comrades can give a much more detailed answer, but the 100 million claim is insane (and I’m pretty even historians, Marxist or not, disregard it).
iirc they put basically every death that happened under socialists countries, even natural causes such as old age that you mentioned, and diseases, and boy oh boy, 100 years of colonization, rural and illiterate china did have a lot of diseases, a lot of people was dying from easily preventable or diseases that were eradicate in capitalist center.
and as you mentioned, people that never existed in the first place, used a wacky population growth chart for china, that didn’t come to reality, so they counted this as victims too.
people that never existed in the first place, used a wacky population growth chart for china,
Yeah, if you executed a nazi not only were they counted as a casualty but also the 4 children, and the 16 grandchildren they would have were counted as well.
it is worse than i through, now i have to read this shit to be aware of this fucking thing
New stat dropped
250 xibillion killed by Communists masturbating and using contraception
The fact they estimate the number of victims of the last famine in China with a wildly wide margin of 15-60 million, with official number being the minimal one already tells you how bullshit that is.
Don’t forget the White Army! You would think that anticommunists would feel at least a tinge of shame or concern for honoring violent antisemites alongside infants who died from famine, but nope, it doesn’t bother them at all.
When I was editing Leftypedia, my most popular page was the one responding to the ‘100 million deaths’ meme. Somebody griped about how I did not include a less inaccurate death toll for communism, so I gave that my best shot. That was the worst mistake that I made there. The anticommunists who saw that page ignored everything but the less inflated total that I proposed and they whined about it. Finally I just took it out because they wouldn’t stop missing the point.
This is my favourite reply:
Even so, it still raises a very important question: why would any state kill so many people?
Why would the Nazis kill so many people… oh wait… can we even do that?
Why not? What is wrong with asking that? Isn’t determining criminals’ motives necessary for, you know, crime prevention? What good is consecrating an atrocity to the point where we aren’t allowed to even speculate on its exact causes?
Carelessness like that is one of the reasons why I usually don’t bother trying to reason with anticommunists.
One of the most important skills is knowing when the person you’re talking to is irredeemable. That point where even if you got through to them and they heard and understood you loud and clear, it wouldn’t matter because they’re genuinely an evil person on the inside. It’s hard to accept but some people can genuinely only be cured with the 82nd element.
It can be hard to tell, some people really are just deeply sick, but aren’t truly evil. That’s why I always prod for their humanity, even when all evidence shows they don’t have any. You never know… Some people really are in deep, and while I might not be able to save them I can at least plant a seed which will give them a chance to find redemption when they’re ready.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
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100 million more dead nazis, 100 million more dead kulaks, 100 million more dead landlords.
Society is a fuck
Gommulism ended life on earth
The Jewish doctrine of Marxism repudiates the aristocratic principle of Nature and substitutes for it the eternal privilege of force and energy, numerical mass and its dead weight. Thus it denies the individual worth of the human personality, impugns the teaching that nationhood and race have a primary significance, and by doing this it takes away the very foundations of human existence and human civilization.
If the Marxist teaching were to be accepted as the foundation of the life of the universe, it would lead to the disappearance of all order that is conceivable to the human mind. And thus the adoption of such a law would provoke chaos in the structure of the greatest organism that we know, with the result that the inhabitants of this earthly planet would finally disappear.
Should the Jew, with the aid of his Marxist creed, triumph over the people of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of mankind, and this planet will once again follow its orbit through the ether, without any human life on its surface, as it did millions of years ago.
— Adolf Schicklgruber, Mein Kampf
Remove the stuff about the Jewish conspiracy and you more or less get what liberals believe today. Especially the thing about how socialism “denies the individual worth of the human personality” is treated like a common sense truism by even the most well-meaning radlibs.
“If you could get liberals to read Mien Kampf, they would realize just how similar their politicians are to Hitler”
The sands of our barren world tumble through the air, warning all alien civilizations of Stalin’s insatiable hunger for grain
Never ask a man their wage, never ask a woman their age
Never ask an anticommunist who the soviets were killing
Is there a lib-friendly source for this (preferably a New York Times article, Obama speech, Disney movie or similar)?
there are a few studies on this, libs tend to have trouble dismissing studies because they fancy themselves as enlightened intellectuals https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9735018/
CoMmUnIsM KiILed 100 MiLliOn
“And yet it clearly missed one.”
Reds Killed Trillions
Reds fucked my wife
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Nazis fuck so much dry pussy they literally think getting wet is a medical disorder.
It’s funny. Mass death only seems to be a problem when the government wasn’t doing it for profit.
lol right
