Well, you guys voted for fascism. Now you’ve got it.
“but he claimed to be Anarcho and anti-government”…
Turns out he was only opposed to good government!
Good thing that the person who said what this article claims IS NOT in the government…
José Luis Espert, a legislator with Milei’s party
Wikipedia continues:
He was elected National Deputy for the Province of Buenos Aires in the 2021 Argentine legislative election.
So what indicates he’s not in the government?
All I can say is that Wikipedia is not a reliable source but I understand investigating profoundly every minor topic is a nuisance, but if you don’t, it all basically boils down to “trust me bro” which is what my answer is about to be:
Jose Luis Espert is a Libertarian Legislator sure, but not on Milei’s Party, he and her companion are their own block “Avanza Libertad” while Milei’s block is “La Libertad Avanza” which Understandably might cause confusion, but the fact is that they arent the same. Meanwhile Espert’s block is affiliated with “The Pro” or “Juntos por el Cambio” who Milei’s government has made a coallition with to be enabled to govern/pass laws in the Senate. Basically an alliance
Espert is NOWHERE in that picture however. The english article might just be outdated, tho as Milei and Espert used to be friends but they went separate ways when Espert Joined the Pro like 7 months ago. Would recommend the spanish article which is somewhat more accurate
Thank you for taking the time to explain your points and you are correct that I’ve only really seen headlines and white media about this new leader.
In case you really are intersted, I would suggest r/Argentina on Reddit or r/Republica_Argentina again on Reddit
To clarify the former is more right-oriented (pro current gov, against past) and the latter is Left-oriented (pro past gov, against current)
Official new sources straight from Argentina are hard to trust, as they used to be Paid by the government and served as propagandists for it until like a week ago since Milei made a decree to halt said Payments for at least a Year (You can search about this with the term “Pauta oficial Argentina”)
They’re not hard to trust they are impossible to trust. They are fantasy, fiction publications. That’s to be expected when there’s no such thing as anti corruption and half the country is illiterate.
And yet the Argentinian middle class decides it is good to listen to corporate group news mostly. Here we have few state sponsored media channels. And if they were many, rest assured they have neither the power nor the success of Clarín and La Nación, the two biggest players in the media bussiness in the country. To be completely fair, most news media in Argentina (at least, 80% of which by far those two i mentioned previously are made of) is basically right leaning. In some cases, too much to look the other way. But Argentinians have success in defeating logic and facts with fictitious campaign slogans, complete disdain for history and ridicule understandings of economics. That is why the right wing is so strong here.
This new president we got surely is gonna be respecting of freedom /s
I don’t know how an Anti-Corruption office would go with Media Outlets spewing misinformation, free speech is fundamental after all. If they say something that’s wrong they should be sued by the affected, people should loose interest in their channel and it would die off because there’s no profit when nobody watches or trusts them.
On another hand, there are some trustable ones but of course who those are varies from person to person, for now let’s just wait until the ones that cant survive without the government’s money die off and we’ll put up to public scrutiny the rest
The security minister is not in the govt?
The security minister is in the government, yes.
The person who said “prison or bullet” is not.
Average self-proclaimed libertarian
And here I thought libertarians hailed themselves as freedom absolutists.
they do. right now they’re upset because prison or bullet violates their freedom to choose how they punish other people for using freedom incorrectly. the moderates are outside waving gadsden flags and chanting “prison or bullet OR FIRE OR FLAYING OR DROWNING”. Because freedom.
I feel like Argentina is in for a rough ride. Meili is a buffoon, and dangerously ignorant.
Can confirm. It’s our own Trump / Bolsonaro.
Remember when that emu bit Bolsonaro? Good times.
I remember when he got stabbed… A shame he didn’t die.
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Fascists gonna fascist…
My first thought was that this was very un-Libertarian of Milei, and then I got my answer:
José Luis Espert, a legislator in Bullrich’s Together for Change alliance, which is in coalition with Milei’s Liberty Advances party, replied with a three-word phrase: “Prison or bullet.”
Milei did not even say these lines.
It seems to be mostly about cracking down on disruptive protests that block traffic, etc.
Some of this just isn’t that bad:
It also limits the participation of teenagers in social protests, ruling that parents of youngsters who should have been at school instead of protesting will be sanctioned.
Fair & good.
Reading past the headline? Yeah…we don’t do that here
So he’s basically just a liberal, right? Similar expansions of the police and increasing militarization happened under thatcher and reagan. He might call himself an “ancap”, but he’s probably just gonna be the same as them, in practice, since we live in a globalized economic system. No call from me on whether or not he’s going to be worse or not as bad, but he just seems like he’s basically the same as them ideologically.
Ahh yes, the notoriously liberal Thatcher and Reagan…
In any country except the US, yeah. Liberals are right-wing free market conservative
Yes? Thatcher and Reagan were liberal. Call it neoliberal if you like.
Are you American? Bear in mind that the rest of the world doesn’t use liberal in the American sense (where people just say liberal = left wing).
It’s way more accurate to call them neoliberal, because that’s what they are.
It’s perfectly accurate to call them liberal. Because that’s what they are.
I read the wiki page on just Liberalism, thinking two can play at that game. And I found that, well damn, by Wikipedia, you’re right. So why are liberals conflated with communists who think property should be commonly owned?
In the US, “liberal” and “conservative” come from different interpretations of the constitution. A “liberal” is somebody who interprets it liberally, that is, that the people who wrote it couldn’t account for every possibility, so interpretations of it should take into account the “spirit” of the work and try to interpret what they wanted when they wrote it. A “conservative” interprets it conservatively, that is, that they only concern themselves with the “letter” of what it says, and that the law is limited to EXACTLY what the document says based on the language at the time it was written.
Without taking obvious sides on this argument in this post, this is part of where the argument over the 2nd amendment comes from - The exact wording of the amendment isn’t up for debate - it’s written down right over there and anybody can read it. But what the two sides differ on is:
- What that wording actually means.
- Whether or not that wording is still relevant.
- Whether or not that section should be repealed by amendment.
The literal exact wording is: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
But what does that actually mean?
To a conservative, it is interpreted using the original meanings of the words with no room for error. The words are sacrosanct and not up for revision or reinterpretation. “well regulated” in 1700s vocabulary means “well equipped and maintained”, and a militia was a group of citizens that organized themselves outside of military control. “to keep” means to own “and bear” means to have something in their possession at any time in any situation. So taken together, translated to modern language using the original meanings of the words, it means “A country’s security and freedom depend upon citizens coming together with proper equipment, maintenance, and training, so people shall always have the right to own and carry weapons.”
But to a liberal, there’s room for interpretation and modification. In modern parlance, “well regulated” means “subject to rules and regulations”. A “militia” is a volunteer military organization. Taken together, they mean “A military organization with stringent rules.” So if the sentence starts with “A well regulated militia…”, then does the sentence only apply to those in the military? Combined with the next clause, it goes “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the free state…”. At the time of the writing, militias were the primary system of civilian security. But now we have military and civilian police for security, so do we still need civilian firearm ownership / public carry? If not, then is this clause even necessary anymore? Should an amendment eliminate it?
Again, I’m not taking a side in this post. That’s not my goal here. Of course I have my own opinion, but to maintain neutrality, I’m not going to share it on this thread. I’m just trying to illustrate how the terms “conservative” and “liberal” grew out of different interpretations and thoughts regarding the US constitution.
Great response.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Human rights activists in Argentina have expressed consternation over new security guidelines to crack down on an anticipated wave of protests after the incoming government of libertarian president Javier Milei devalued the country’s currency by more than 50%.
The aim of the new rules is to prevent a traditional form of protest known as piquete, in which demonstrators blockade city roads and highways for hours, days – and sometimes even weeks at a time.
“Under the promise of order [the government] seeks to suppress public protest against the effects of official measures,” said the Centre of Legal Studies (CELS) in a statement.
“The measures attack the right to protest and criminalize those who demonstrate and persecute social and political organizations.”Leftist legislator and former presidential candidate Myriam Bregman said on X (formerly Twitter): “What Bullrich announced is absolutely unconstitutional … The right to protest is the first of all rights.” José Luis Espert, a legislator with Milei’s party, Liberty Advances, replied with a three-word phrase: “Prison or bullet.”The new protocol empowers police at train and bus stations to seize face masks, sticks or other elements they consider could be used in a demonstration.
In this way, it criminalizes mothers and fathers who demand better conditions for their families and excludes those in charge of their care,” said the CELS in its statement.Television newscaster Mario Massaccesi of the TN news channel recalled that Bullrich herself blockaded downtown streets in Buenos Aires when protesting against Covid lockdowns.
“What authority does she have now to tell others they can’t protest?” asked the newscaster.Protests are expected in response to the massive wage cuts and transport and tariff hikes announced as part of Milei’s “chainsaw” economic programme.
The original article contains 516 words, the summary contains 281 words. Saved 46%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Believe it or not, jail…
Yeah no, that’s Venezuela, where, believe it or not, maduro runs over protestors with tanks, emulating his Chinese overlords
This article is straight up missinformation. The person who did that quote, ON TWITTER is not affiliated to the Political Party of the Government, they are in fact Opposition
The Guardian showing being a shit source
Edit: Also want to note, multiple claims on the Article not related to the headline are also fake, the Peso was not devalued by Javier Milei, it was already that bad before he became President, what he did was make the Government stop lying about it
No. They are not. Espert is currently aligned with JxC (Juntos por el Cambio). And surprise to none, they are running the country basically along with LLA (La Libertad Avanza). And even if that weren’t the case, Espert literally threatened leftist parliamentaries. The fucker is even one of the signataries of The Madrid Charter, for God’s sake.
The Peso was devalued with Milei, and also before. And will keep being devaluated because this govt does not care about the people. They care about the profit as the govt of Fernandez and Macri did.
The right wing is never the answer. Sadly, those who’ll pay the price for being so ignorant about it will be the citizens.
Abd replying to something you said, maybe you have no knowledge about fascism, but Milei is clearly a fascist.
You just gave me the right on everything about Espert… Including that he’s just a legislator and LLA having an Alliance with JxC to be allowed to govern… So thanks I guess
However, no the Peso was not devaluated, the Official exchange just moved towards the real exchange since for some reason they dont want to steal more from the Workers and Tourists that fall for the trap of the Official Exchange… HMMMM
And yeah let’s just be absolutists and say the right is never the answer, that’s obviously flawless and correct and doesnt make you look any biased at all…
And would like to know the quote you are apparently replying to? Because so far Milei has advocated to follow the constitution, has complied with his campaign promises so far and has been democratically elected unlike his opponent in the Elections who has De-Facto President on his Minister of Economy facade, Surely those arent fascists, correct?
Milei is not making “the caste” pay. Milei is making workers pay. And Massa was not the president. He was the Superminister of Economy. And in Argentina, that is a big deal. But I’m not aware of him defying the Constitution in his tenure. Now, forgive me for believing the right, who aims to mantain it’s privileges every time they feel they are slightly threatened, can’t be trusted.
Except that… he’s already making the Caste pay?.. 2 out of his 3 Decrees so far have already cut A LOT of Political Priviledges and Money making schemes planted by the Peronists, and more are to come out of his words. Sure the workers are paying too i’ll give you that.
And yes, Massa was the President, of course not in an official way because that would be unconstitutional and Political Suicide, on the Most Peronist fashion it was all done under the rug. As soon as Massa assumed his charge the President Alberto Fernandez LITERALLY dissapeared from Public View AND Executively did NOTHING the rest of his mandate. Massa took his place both in Public Acts and on actually ordering the Country. There’s no way to make this shit up given how blatant it was
I don’t think you’re getting my point. The caste is composed of corrupt politicians, corporatioms that lobby the state, unnecesary assistants, etc. Congresspersons are not seeing their salarys reduced, nor are they having a more strict set of rules when it comes to assisting to sessions. Corporations are not paying anything. They are not being affected. Aristocracie has the same tax regime, there is no tax on bigger fortunes that enables some load of the measures to be lifted from the workers, and they’re getting the chance to buy state companys that are direct competition. There is also the elimination of price regulations and observation policy, so literally they can and will charge as much as they want (and yes, you could say that if you can’t afford it, don’t pay for it, but what about the food!?) On democracy and freedoms, freedoms are being reduced (Bulrich’s anti-picket protocol failed tremendously given that the streets were indeed cut off, althought not cut off by the manifestants). Right wing extremist are threatening leftist politicians, as you have seen with Espert. United Left Front parliamentary Natalia Morales was anonymously threatened with “not seeing sunlight ever again”.
Listen, I get the critics of peronism are valid. And I wholeheartedly agree that they have to be accountable of the wrongs they did and keep doing. What I do not and can not condone is the " on laws ground everything, out of them nothing" rethoric and then unconstitutionalism. If Peronism politicians do it is wrong. If leftist politicians do it is wrong. You can not fuck up the CN. If right wingers do it is also wrong. You can not say “well, peronist do it”. Because that is not the way it works when you said all the heavy things you said when in campaign.
And then we could go and analyze why most of what Milei said on campaign was wrong. We cpuld start iith his bashing of aocialism and communism when, he may not know what the hell those are, because he does not appear to know how they work or the definitions, or he knows but finds amusing to spew lies. We could go on and prove markets are not good at autoregulation, we could prove that economic growth does not equal life quality, climate change is obviously real and denying it should be penalized in my opinion because scientific consensus on the matter is hella strong, etc.
We can argue for hours about all of this things. And again, the caste should pay. But they’re not. Because those who made themselves rich on the workers labor, sweat and tears are not having any privileges being taken away. They are just getting more chances at exploiting.
You’re really fighting the good fight here
It’s impressive there’s even a fight to be had here, I expected Lemmy to be way more critical than Reddit but people seem to boast being lied to, meanwhile in Reddit this article has already been taken down for missinformation, thanks to the dozens of Argies providing proof of it being the case, saying the same things I am
I mean this place is a leftism cesspool, even more than Reddit. I’ll post miles new measures for the first week in Spanish on the arg Lemmy if you want
There’s an Arg lemmy? If so mind linking it, dont think I’ve seen one yet
